Xenophase :: View topic » Guide: Weapon Damage Card Modifiers

Posted: 28 Sep 2008 12:26

Kaz! wrote:

Vagabond wrote:

Theres something about Double Daggers that i have never understand.

Why the hell do people make a double bloody boned Gladius and a double bloody double boned Main Mauche....... When they could simply make a triple boned Gladius and a quad bloody Main Gauche.

They do the same freaking damage exept the trip boned and quad bloody is much more versatile then double double. Yet ppl still make double double....why?

I think this one I can answer. The short of it is that it *doesn't* do the same damage when you distribute the cards like that. This is because the mainhand and offhand hits are treated differently. With respect to cards, the damage modifcation cards on the offhand weapon affect the mainhand hit damage. However, any cards on the mainhand weapon DO NOT affect the offhand hit damage.

So although the mainhand damage should be the same regardless of the distribution of cards between the two hands, the offhand damage would be higher if the distribution of cards on the offhand weapon itself were optimized. The difference is fairly minimal (since the offhand weapon usually has a much lower attack power, will not double-attack, and has a maximum effectiveness of 80% even with full lefthand mastery) -- but there are still those willing to go to great lengths to add even a bit more damage to their attacks.

Note: Yes, I know that the Doddler's calculator spits out the same result regardless of how you distribute the cards between the hands. However, unless something has changed about this mechanic in the year or so since I last tested it on this server, I'd be tempted to say that the calculation on the simulator is incorrect.

Dom you're correct that the damage is the same, at least from the most recent tests I've done. The reason people mix them up is basically "not putting all your eggs in the same basket". Think about it, if you're forced into a situation where you are unable to use both weapons at once, (ex. weapon break, strip, shield on your offhand), you want to be able to maximize your damage output with the weapon that you have left. Also being able to use those weapons on other characters who can't dual wield is a factor. Would you rather have a triple boned gladius or a double bloody boned gladius on a rogue that uses backstab?

Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 641/32 Rating: -53

just what i was about to say. say you bought your icepick. wouldn't you want a double double mg instead of a quad?

a lot of you guys mentioned stuff such as breakpoint calculation, the minimum stat needed to use 4s weapons, and certain skills that are best complimented by either 3s or 4s weapons.

can someone please verify (make sure claims are correct) and clarify (which skills use which weapons, minimum dex or minimum str needed for which weapon or card combination) and add to the original post? that way future readers wont have to drag through the entire thread to find what they are looking for. maybe include the infiltrator calculation as well.

that would be greatly appreciated thanks!

edit: maybe include a list of important cards and their effects as well =)

Posted: 28 Sep 2008 13:19

Vagabond wrote:

Theres something about Double Daggers that i have never understand.

Why the hell do people make a double bloody boned Gladius and a double bloody double boned Main Mauche....... When they could simply make a triple boned Gladius and a quad bloody Main Gauche.

They do the same freaking damage exept the trip boned and quad bloody is much more versatile then double double. Yet ppl still make double double....why?

Cuz a Quad Boned MG is damn expensive?

Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 641/32 Rating: -53

yggdrasil wrote:

Vagabond wrote:

Theres something about Double Daggers that i have never understand.

Why the hell do people make a double bloody boned Gladius and a double bloody double boned Main Mauche....... When they could simply make a triple boned Gladius and a quad bloody Main Gauche.

They do the same freaking damage exept the trip boned and quad bloody is much more versatile then double double. Yet ppl still make double double....why?

Cuz a Quad Boned MG is damn expensive?

can you please read?

1. the number of hydra and skel worker cards are the same in both situations and will therefore cost the same price.

2. no one is talking about a quad boned mg. he said quad bloody mg and double bloody double boned mg. he even bolded it for you.

Banned Joined: 08 Dec 2007 Posts: 449/18 Rating: 1

dada1713 wrote:

just what i was about to say. say you bought your icepick. wouldn't you want a double double mg instead of a quad?

can someone please verify (make sure claims are correct) and clarify (which skills use which weapons, minimum dex or minimum str needed for which weapon or card combination) and add to the original post? that way future readers wont have to drag through the entire thread to find what they are looking for. maybe include the infiltrator calculation as well.

Well Bryan, a quad is more universal, where as a double double is less universal, but has a greater damage output. For you (cuz ur rich T_T), a double double is better, as you can spend the money. This is because different cards multiply the damage, while same cards just add. Therefore, a double double would look like this:
(1.00 + 0.2x2)x(1.00 + 0.2x2), which would equal 1.96 x damage.
a quad would look like this:
(1.00 + 0.2x4), which would equal 1.8 x damage.
A double double is usually more potent than a triple single. Also, since you battle sleepers (a lot, I think), a double double would be better as sleepers drop good loots, and you can afford a double kaho double peco egg.

also, here is my infil calculation again (or did you mean drakkhul put it on first post?):
The infil bonus acts as 2.5 hydra cards (20 x 2.5 = 50).
Therefore, a hydra'd infil would act like this :
(1.00 + 0.5(from infil bonus) + 0.2 (hydra)) = 1.7

On the other hand, a skel worker'd infil would act like this:
((1.00 + 0.5) x (1.00 + 0.15) +5) = 1.725 + 5

Hydra'd = 1.7 + Upgrade bonus
Skel worker'd = 1.725 + 5 + upgrade bonus

Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 641/32 Rating: -53

i mean put it in the first post. like, everything.

and i meant when i should go from triple single to double double. i never made any quad bloody or, for my saber, triple bloody. i always went for 1 boned. i just dont know when to go for 2 boned.

Posted: 28 Sep 2008 13:50

dada1713 wrote:

just what i was about to say. say you bought your icepick. wouldn't you want a double double mg instead of a quad?

I'd prefer a quad boned since its much more versatile: i can pvp as well as pvm with the same daggers. But thats just my opinion.

Kyubi86 wrote:

Think about it, if you're forced into a situation where you are unable to use both weapons at once, (ex. weapon break, strip, shield on your offhand), you want to be able to maximize your damage output with the weapon that you have left. Also being able to use those weapons on other characters who can't dual wield is a factor. Would you rather have a triple boned gladius or a double bloody boned gladius on a rogue that uses backstab?

When ure at the point where you want to break stuff or deal status, you aren't thinking about dealing the most damage possible, but more to do the thing you changed your weapon for (you'll use 2 sword breakers instead of 1 and switch back to damage dagger after you broke/divest/status the player).
Although my question was just for Dual Dagger sins, about the rogue exemple: If you really want to maximize your damage, you'll use a Sword and not a Dagger.

Posted: 28 Sep 2008 14:30

Vagabond wrote:

dada1713 wrote:

just what i was about to say. say you bought your icepick. wouldn't you want a double double mg instead of a quad?

I'd prefer a quad boned since its much more versatile: i can pvp as well as pvm with the same daggers. But thats just my opinion.

Kyubi86 wrote:

Think about it, if you're forced into a situation where you are unable to use both weapons at once, (ex. weapon break, strip, shield on your offhand), you want to be able to maximize your damage output with the weapon that you have left. Also being able to use those weapons on other characters who can't dual wield is a factor. Would you rather have a triple boned gladius or a double bloody boned gladius on a rogue that uses backstab?

When ure at the point where you want to break stuff or deal status, you aren't thinking about dealing the most damage possible, but more to do the thing you changed your weapon for (you'll use 2 sword breakers instead of 1 and switch back to damage dagger after you broke/divest/status the player).
Although my question was just for Dual Dagger sins, about the rogue exemple: If you really want to maximize your damage, you'll use a Sword and not a Dagger.

The point I was making is that you're the one whose weapons have been broken not you trying to break your opponents. You want to be able to maximize your damage if this is the worst case scenario. Obviously if you're going for breaks or status effects, weapon damage wouldn't concern you. dada1713 also gave a good example, if you want to use your icepick instead on your main hand, you'd be better off having a specialized weapon on your off hand as a opposed to a generic versatile one simply because damage is greater.

Also as far as specialty weapons go, mixed damage modifier weapons are the best card combination to use for damage maximization. If you want versatility at the cost of less damage, go for generic weapons like triple/quadruple boned when you make the weapon. The majority of people on this server focus on PvP so they'd prefer specialty over versatility.

Being able to transfer specialized weapons that yield greater damage over to other characters is important, which is why I gave the rogue example. It's not the best set-up but the double bloody boned gladius getting a higher damage output over the triple boned gladius is the point I'm trying to get across. Of course, you'd prefer a sword to a dagger but in this situation you get better damage output from the double bloody boned gladius as opposed to the tri boned gladius.

Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 641/32 Rating: -53

also, making a specialty weapon doesnt necessarily mean there are bad training spots. say you made a triple bloody boned mg. you can use that at high orcs, which isnt bad exp and if you kill 10,000 you can almost make a orc hero helm! it is also useful in bio3 as well. AND you can do more damage in pvp. so if you are truly concerned about damage, let your pvp weapon determine where you want to train.

Posted: 28 Sep 2008 16:05

I'm almost sure I'm reading this wrong..as always, but

drakkhul wrote:

Player versus player cards:
Three Hydra Cards, One Skel Worker Card. Why? (1.00 +.20 +.20 +.20)x(1.00 +.15) = 1.84 + 5 attack damage *Recommended
Two Hydras, Two Skel Workers = 1.82 +10 damage *Less damage

But as you stated here,

drakkhul wrote:

The Double Bloody Double Boned MG deals 121% + 10 attack, while a Triple Bloody Boned MG does 122% + 5 attack. The card percent difference is so small, that the attack makes the difference.

Wouldn't the Double double be better, since it has a .2% damage difference which is like no damage difference , but gives +5 more atk then the triple blood boned comp?

Banned Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 641/32 Rating: -53

its 2% (1.84-1.82 = 0.02)

and 2 percent of a normal hit that does, say, 200 dmg is 4 which is almost the same as the 5 atk. the more damage you do, the more that 2% matters.

Level 35 Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Posts: 1,248 Rating: 136

happyfacehead101 wrote:

@drakkhul: I'm the one without a brain? i started ragnarok in december, you started four years ago. yet, you still cant figure out stuff that i can, and flame me about "not having a brain". another example http://forums.xenophase.net/swordie-question-t87764.html. WHAT'S THIS? flaming me when i'm right again? just dont flame me, i wont flame you. this guide is turning into a flame war.

We can talk about this somewhere else. This is obviously the wrong place to talk about this.

Disneysora wrote:

I'm almost sure I'm reading this wrong..as always, but

drakkhul wrote:

Player versus player cards:
Three Hydra Cards, One Skel Worker Card. Why? (1.00 +.20 +.20 +.20)x(1.00 +.15) = 1.84 + 5 attack damage *Recommended
Two Hydras, Two Skel Workers = 1.82 +10 damage *Less damage

But as you stated here,

drakkhul wrote:

The Double Bloody Double Boned MG deals 121% + 10 attack, while a Triple Bloody Boned MG does 122% + 5 attack. The card percent difference is so small, that the attack makes the difference.

Wouldn't the Double double be better, since it has a .2% damage difference which is like no damage difference , but gives +5 more atk then the triple blood boned comp?

This only applies for daggers, spears, axes, and knuckles. That's why for daggers it would be better to have Double Double.

Posted: 28 Sep 2008 16:37

dada1713 wrote:

yggdrasil wrote:

Vagabond wrote:

Theres something about Double Daggers that i have never understand.

Why the hell do people make a double bloody boned Gladius and a double bloody double boned Main Mauche....... When they could simply make a triple boned Gladius and a quad bloody Main Gauche.

They do the same freaking damage exept the trip boned and quad bloody is much more versatile then double double. Yet ppl still make double double....why?

Cuz a Quad Boned MG is damn expensive?

can you please read?

1. the number of hydra and skel worker cards are the same in both situations and will therefore cost the same price.

2. no one is talking about a quad boned mg. he said quad bloody mg and double bloody double boned mg. he even bolded it for you.

Hmmm, my bad, but I know for a fact Dom uses Quad Boned.

Posted: 28 Sep 2008 16:47

SirFoo wrote:

Triple-Race Single-Sized combos are only viable when your damaging stat is 160 or above, or the skill in question ignores attack power when calculating final damage.

Really? I've been told its the opposite... That once your damaging stat is 160 or above, its better to use double-race, double-size. Shocked

Level 35 Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Posts: 1,248 Rating: 136

tcjinl wrote:

Special type of card modifiers

Turtle general card +20% damage

orc lady +30% dmg to orcs except hero/lord
goblin leader +30% dmg to goblins
lava golem +30% dmg to golem type

abysmal knight +25% dmg to boss/bosstype monsters

and you didnt mention crit at all
paper card +20% crit dmg
mobster +15% crit dmg, 4 crit when thief class

assaulter +10% crit dmg, +7 crit rate to demihuman
dullahan, same w above except its +7 cr to dragon
pretty sure there are few more, just i dont remember --;

I'd assume people will be able to figure out how those cards work from reading those cards' descriptions. Because those cards are related to race, they will stack.